If you were not a soccer (association football) fan before, are you now based on the USWNT or USMNT?

robinb

DIS veteran
Joined
Aug 29, 1999
I would have a problem with someone wearing the actual flag as clothing, or cutting the flag up and making clothes, or what have you with it.
I don't have an issue with using the American flag image in that way though.
I can't answer for everyone only myself.
I was raised by a Vietnam Veteran who taught me to respect our flag and what it stood for and that meant there were certain things you should never do to the (actual flag). Letting it hit the ground was one of those things, so I do cringe when I see it so carelessly handled and dropped. To some it is more than just a piece of fabric.
If to some that means I'm "fetishizing" it, so be it. I have no problem with that kind of insult, it pales in comparison to what I can say about those who don't respect it.
I was also raised by a Vietnam war veteran who voluntarily went on two deployments. In fact, I was a Navy brat and lived on military bases all over the US until I was 12. My father died while on active duty and after that 100% of my medical care was administered at Great Lakes Navel Air Base. I grew up in the military. I grew up on military bases. I grew up stopping for Taps and putting my hand over my heart for the National Anthem.

I have the flag that was on my father's coffin.

I have a flag that flew over the USS Arizona.

Still, the flag is simply a symbol. It is not the country itself. It seems that many in our country have replaced true patriotism with flag worship. THAT is what I mean by "fetishizing the flag".
 

AustinMommyofThree

Mouseketeer
Joined
Jan 23, 2017
Social norms I am ok with. IMHO, that isn't picking and choosing.

Is dropping and dancing on the flag considered a social norm? Last I checked it wasn't.
Social norms become social norms in part because people accept them as no longer being wrong. You have accepted wearing the flag, which is against the flag code and seen by many as disrespectful, because you don’t care about that violation and not because it suddenly became acceptable or less wrong to those who find it objectionable. It’s interesting to me how the same moral relativism so many seem to object to when they disagree with the predicate cause is acceptable when they do not or when they want to engage in the behavior.
 

useakiss

Am I there yet?
Joined
Jan 11, 2017
Have you become a fan of the sport due to the Fifa Women's World Cup or the Concacaf Gold Cup this summer.? If so, do you plan to watch more regularly (like MLS or EPL) or just the occasional game when the USMNT or USWNT play? Thanks for any responses and go USA in both finals today.⚽🇺🇸
Yes, I'll admit that I'm late to the party, but I'm on the bandwagon now. Most of my life I've been a strong Green Bay Packers fan (and still am to some extent), however, the last couple of years of watching the NFL stumble and mishandle one scandal to the next (domestic violence, misogyny, the national anthem and kowtowing to Trump's bullying, etc.) has really soured me on the sport in general. I stopped making an effort to watch the games (I don't live local so it was always a challenge). So I've sort of been feeling a gap. I've been trailing along to Nationals (baseball) games with a friend when she's got a spare seat, but the sport is hardly riveting even in person and I have no interest in watching on TV. But soccer is non-stop excitement and I'm now hooked! And OMG, to not have the game interrupted every minute for more commercials? Priceless!!

On a side note, I thoroughly enjoyed watching women play, more than I anticipated. It wasn't the macho toxic masculinity display we're all so used to in sports in general. This was a breath of fresh air!
 

Hikergirl

DIS Veteran
Joined
Feb 28, 2016
I was also raised by a Vietnam war veteran who voluntarily went on two deployments. In fact, I was a Navy brat and lived on military bases all over the US until I was 12. My father died while on active duty and after that 100% of my medical care was administered at Great Lakes Navel Air Base. I grew up in the military. I grew up on military bases. I grew up stopping for Taps and putting my hand over my heart for the National Anthem.

I have the flag that was on my father's coffin.

I have a flag that flew over the USS Arizona.

Still, the flag is simply a symbol. It is not the country itself. It seems that many in our country have replaced true patriotism with flag worship. THAT is what I mean by "fetishizing the flag".

I explained the way I feel and why and you want to turn it in to some competition?
Ok, you win the prize of having the only right opinion. 🏆
 

fly girl

DIS Veteran
Joined
Jan 20, 2012
Social norms become social norms in part because people accept them as no longer being wrong. You have accepted wearing the flag, which is against the flag code and seen by many as disrespectful, because you don’t care about that violation and not because it suddenly became acceptable or less wrong to those who find it objectionable. It’s interesting to me how the same moral relativism so many seem to object to when they disagree with the predicate cause is acceptable when they do not or when they want to engage in the behavior.
I don’t wear American Flag clothing. I don’t “engage in that behavior.” You’ll have to ask someone who does.

ETA, I have grown up seeing people wear the flag (not an actual flag, but you know what I mean) since the bicentennial.

This incident is just one of many that makes me not care for certain actions of this team. It is what it is. And it’s ok we disagree.

But, I hope no one confuses my distaste for things for not wanting them to receive equal pay. Hell yes they should get equal pay! I’m rooting for them 💯 in that regard. I may not agree with everything they do, but they do a job that generates more revenue than the men and getting 18 cents to their dollar. That is WRONG! And I wish them all the success in getting properly compensated.
 
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MooseBucks

Living the Dream
Joined
Feb 12, 2017
We don’t tend to watch any sports regularly but we’re fans.

I had to stop reading the responses because of the discomfort people seem to have around proud female athletes. Male athletes celebrate obnoxiously too, are outspoken about politics and the like BUT they can beat their wife or run dog fighting rings and are still worshiped... does this deter people from their favorite MLB or NFL team? No. So to not watch a whole team for a few “bad eggs” when it’s a women’s team let’s just be honest it’s becuse you’re sexist.
 

Sandeep1

DIS Veteran
Joined
Dec 20, 2018
We don’t tend to watch any sports regularly but we’re fans.

I had to stop reading the responses because of the discomfort people seem to have around proud female athletes. Male athletes celebrate obnoxiously too, are outspoken about politics and the like BUT they can beat their wife or run dog fighting rings and are still worshiped... does this deter people from their favorite MLB or NFL team? No. So to not watch a whole team for a few “bad eggs” when it’s a women’s team let’s just be honest it’s becuse you’re sexist.
Agreed. Some people need to take a good hard look in the mirror.
 
  • robinb

    DIS veteran
    Joined
    Aug 29, 1999
    I explained the way I feel and why and you want to turn it in to some competition?
    Ok, you win the prize of having the only right opinion. 🏆
    You were the one who brought your father's military service into the discussion about flags :chat:. I was simply responding to it, not making it a competition.
     

    fly girl

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Jan 20, 2012
    We don’t tend to watch any sports regularly but we’re fans.

    I had to stop reading the responses because of the discomfort people seem to have around proud female athletes. Male athletes celebrate obnoxiously too, are outspoken about politics and the like BUT they can beat their wife or run dog fighting rings and are still worshiped... does this deter people from their favorite MLB or NFL team? No. So to not watch a whole team for a few “bad eggs” when it’s a women’s team let’s just be honest it’s becuse your sexist.
    Yes, it did deter me. I have quit watching certain college and pro sports teams because of how male players got away with actions much worse than what we saw in women’s soccer.

    But I have a right to still be annoyed by their actions too. That doesn’t make me sexist. It makes me someone who has an opinion when she sees something she doesn’t like.
     

    MooseBucks

    Living the Dream
    Joined
    Feb 12, 2017
    Yes, it did deter me. I have quit watching certain college and pro sports teams because of how male players got away with actions much worse than what we saw in women’s soccer.

    But I have a right to still be annoyed by their actions too. That doesn’t make me sexist. It makes me someone who has an opinion when she sees something she doesn’t like.
    Ok. I wasn’t talking about you...
     

    lifesavacation

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Jan 24, 2016
    Yes, it did deter me. I have quit watching certain college and pro sports teams because of how male players got away with actions much worse than what we saw in women’s soccer.

    But I have a right to still be annoyed by their actions too. That doesn’t make me sexist. It makes me someone who has an opinion when she sees something she doesn’t like.
    I guess I'm unclear why we all need to like the team. Do we all have to like the Cubs or the Dodgers or the Raiders? What about indifference? Does that make someone sexist too? I'm just not seeing the correlation.
     
  • Lumpy1106

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Jul 2, 2010
    Have always been a fan from the first World cup. Also love what they are fighting/stand for. a 440 million dollar prize for men vs a 30 million dollar prize for women is ridiculous.
    I too stand in support of the USWNT getting equal treatment, but you can't compare the Women's World Cup to the Men's...right now. The Men's World Cup is a juggernaut; THE most watched event in the world. The Women's World Cup is not, but I think thankfully so.

    What you CAN compare is the salary the USWNT team makes in comparison to the USMNT. In that comparison, the whole, "but which team draws more attendance" defense doesn't stand; the USWNT actually DOES draw more attendance. US Soccer actually concedes this point, but then argues that they have to pay the men more because there is more International competition for their services, which inflates the price they have to pay the best US men to get them to play. OK, so why isn't the USMNT any good? (anybody? Bueller?). And no, I don't count making the Gold Cup Final (that no, I did not watch) because they had to play a team from a tiny little country that anyone that doesn't live there can't find on a map in order to get there (seriously, no using Google, where is Curacao?). I digress...

    What is really discouraging though isn't so much that the USWNT isn't paid better (but seriously, let's start there), but that there are SO MANY countries that are so far behind in giving women equal rights that they cannot even field a competitive international soccer team. There is a direct correlation between the two; The US, Canada, France, Australia, Sweden, the Netherlands, England, Spain - women's rights are fairly strong (room to improve obviously) in all of the countries. How about Mexico or Russia? Why isn't Argentina or Brazil (both men's WC powerhouses) better? Solve that problem and the Women's WC will explode. After all, what did you see int he WWC stands that you don't see in the MWC stands? Women - it's an untapped audience with unlimited potential.
     

    fly girl

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Jan 20, 2012
    I guess I'm unclear why we all need to like the team. Do we all have to like the Cubs or the Dodgers or the Raiders? What about indifference? Does that make someone sexist too? I'm just not seeing the correlation.
    The Cubs represent Chicago. These women represent our country. Terrible analogy.
    I see where @lifesavacation was going.

    I saw the question as do all American’s have to like the team? And if they are indifferent are they sexist too?

    Maybe if it was questioned as do all Chicagoans have to like the Bears? (Can’t go MLB, they have 2 teams and if you saw footage there were brawls in the stands this weekend.)


    It is interesting because On this thread the ones who aren’t in love are getting a little backlash. Fair enough. I get some are passionate. That’s cool. If it works for you, more power to you. I’m happy for you.

    But not everyone is, and I don’t think being indifferent makes you wrong or a sexist.
     

    MooseBucks

    Living the Dream
    Joined
    Feb 12, 2017
    Fair enough. :thumbsup2

    Just wanted to state my case ... I’ve been on the very unpopular end this morning, I jumped to conclusion it was directed in my corner. Oops. lol
    No worries its hard on an open forum like this. My focus is towards those who pick and choose then use ridiculous excuses to hate because they are women and don’t have a blanket moral standard like you :)
     

    Moliphino

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Jun 29, 2016
    I see where @lifesavacation was going.

    I saw the question as do all American’s have to like the team? And if they are indifferent are they sexist too?

    Maybe if it was questioned as do all Chicagoans have to like the Bears? (Can’t go MLB, they have 2 teams and if you saw footage there were brawls in the stands this weekend.)


    It is interesting because On this thread the ones who aren’t in love are getting a little backlash. Fair enough. I get some are passionate. That’s cool. If it works for you, more power to you. I’m happy for you.

    But not everyone is, and I don’t think being indifferent makes you wrong or a sexist.
    I think a more apt comparison would be the Olympics instead of MLB/NFL/NBA/NHL. Do I care about all of the sports in the Olympics? No. But I still generally root for the US team/athlete if there is one. Same with the World Cup. I don't care about soccer and didn't watch any of it, but was generally rooting for the US team to win.
     

    sam_gordon

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Jun 26, 2010
    I see where @lifesavacation was going.

    I saw the question as do all American’s have to like the team? And if they are indifferent are they sexist too?

    Maybe if it was questioned as do all Chicagoans have to like the Bears? (Can’t go MLB, they have 2 teams and if you saw footage there were brawls in the stands this weekend.)


    It is interesting because On this thread the ones who aren’t in love are getting a little backlash. Fair enough. I get some are passionate. That’s cool. If it works for you, more power to you. I’m happy for you.

    But not everyone is, and I don’t think being indifferent makes you wrong or a sexist.
    I agree with you to a certain extent. I think expecting the WC (or CONCACAF) to generate more fans on it's own is unrealistic. Sure, a few people might start watching the game, but I think that would be a very small number.

    I also agree that just because the MNT & WNT are representing the US doesn't mean every American has to like or even root for them. I also agree those who have made comments against the team have gotten backlash. But the team has gotten backlash. You can say it's part of their job and they're in the public eye and not everyone is going to agree with them, and that's all true. But when you post on a public message board, YOU'RE stating your beliefs "in the public eye" and not everyone is going to agree with them.
     

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