Who is a member?

[VWLforever]

I have always found it sad that DVC only allows certain members ( the blue card members) to book the DVC member cruises. That’s even if the white card “member“ wants to pay cash. I have enjoyed the experiences of every DVC member cruise that I have been on, about 8 of them.

If DVC continues to be able to sell out member cruises to the "blue card" members, count on this restriction to continue. However, the only thing I am familiar with that has price inflation more crazy than the Disney Parks, is DCL. Their prices are getting ridiculous. At some point if DCL overshoots what folks are willing to pay out, and a member cruise goes 30 or 50% unsold at say 3 months prior to departure date, then I expect DVC to market it as a "special perk" to the "white card" members to be able to book onto that cruise. Disney is using the DCL member cruise limit as a means to drive direct sales. But DCL is a separate division, and if they need to fill up a cruise ship, you can count on them to go to Iger and the board, and make that happen.

 

[zavandor]

Then take Disney, Walt Disney Trading, DVC, and any other company you believe has denied you your rights to court.

There was a thread titled "would you join a lawsuit to cancel the resale restrictions" early this year.
The conclusion of that thread was that what Disney did was probably illegal (for the reasons Drusba listed), but current owners have very little incentive to pay for a lawsuit because they've been grandfathered.
I think this is a Damocle's sword over DVC head, at some point a critical mass of people for a lawsuit might form. Maybe owners both of the L14 and Riv resale, or people who will see the value of the L14 contract plummet after 2042.

 

[Sandisw]

There was a thread titled "would you join a lawsuit to cancel the resale restrictions" early this year.
The conclusion of that thread was that what Disney did was probably illegal (for the reasons Drusba listed), but current owners have very little incentive to pay for a lawsuit because they've been grandfathered.
I think this is a Damocle's sword over DVC head, at some point a critical mass of people for a lawsuit might form. Maybe owners both of the L14 and Riv resale, or people who will see the value of the L14 contract plummet after 2042.

Here is my question. Since they now have the multisite POS, and May have amended things, would new resale borrowers who buy now with restrictions be eligible to claim the violation because that language in the original documents is different?

Can they even amend resort POS documents?

 

[zavandor]

Here is my question. Since they now have the multisite POS, and May have amended things, would new resale borrowers who buy now with restrictions be eligible to claim the violation because that language in the original documents is different?

Can they even amend resort POS documents?

I am not a lawyer and I don't even live in the USA, so my opinion is really worthless... but I'm going to write it anyway
The POS of the L14 resorts have not been modified, the SSR POS I've read doesn't even mention a multi site POS. So any change made to multi site POS is irrelevant.
Someone buying resale assumes the same rights as the original owner. So someone who owns at the L14 and RIV (or reflections) will be interested in doing a lawsuit to remove the restrictions.
I don't think someone buying RIV resale would have any ground for a lawsuit.

At the time, someone said: since all the current owners have been grandfathered, for them RIV has actually joined the Club like all the other resorts. I don't remember the exact wording, but the POS doesn't say that future resorts must join with the exact same rules, but with in a substantially equivalent way. So for current owners, RIV joined in a substantially equivalent way.
I bet this is the interpretation that DVC will go with if challenged.
It doesn't account for the loss of value of contracts, but that would be difficult to demonstrate (the first half of this year contracts at the L14 went actually up) and a resale value is not guaranteed anyway.
So I wouldn't be sure a lawsuit would win, but still it is possible.

 

[Sandisw]

I am not a lawyer and I don't even live in the USA, so my opinion is really worthless... but I'm going to write it anyway
The POS of the L14 resorts have not been modified, the SSR POS I've read doesn't even mention a multi site POS. So any change made to multi site POS is irrelevant.
Someone buying resale assumes the same rights as the original owner. So someone who owns at the L14 and RIV (or reflections) will be interested in doing a lawsuit to remove the restrictions.
I don't think someone buying RIV resale would have any ground for a lawsuit.

At the time, someone said: since all the current owners have been grandfathered, for them RIV has actually joined the Club like all the other resorts. I don't remember the exact wording, but the POS doesn't say that future resorts must join with the exact same rules, but with in a substantially equivalent way. So for current owners, RIV joined in a substantially equivalent way.
I bet this is the interpretation that DVC will go with if challenged.
It doesn't account for the loss of value of contracts, but that would be difficult to demonstrate (the first half of this year contracts at the L14 went actually up) and a resale value is not guaranteed anyway.
So I wouldn't be sure a lawsuit would win, but still it is possible.

Thanks. So, the new resale buyers of resorts from many of the original L14 whose POS has language in it about the BVTC might have grounds since they assume those terms. Interesting.

You are right, There would be no grounds for Rivera because original owners, like myself are buying with that restriction in place and therefore, a resale buyer is buying a resort with that language in place.

Makes sense, Like you said, one can’t argue resale value as that is not something guaranteed in any timeshare purchase

 

[justadreamaway77]

I saved over $10,000 buying resale. I'm totally cool with not being able to go to a lounge that is completely out of my way since I have no interest in staying at BLT. As for the other perks....they aren't that great, definitely not worth $10,000!

 

[Sandisw]

I saved over $10,000 buying resale. I'm totally cool with not being able to go to a lounge that is completely out of my way since I have no interest in staying at BLT. As for the other perks....they aren't that great, definitely not worth $10,000!

As a white card holder, you can still visit TOTWL, just so you know. It is the Epcot lounge that isn’t available.

But, like you said, given a $10k savings, it Sounds like resale was the way to go!

 

[justadreamaway77]

As a white card holder, you can still visit TOTWL, just so you know. It is the Epcot lounge that isn’t available.

But, like you said, given a $10k savings, it Sounds like resale was the way to go!

Sorry, new member. I thought TOTWL was out....still won't go. I didn't even think about the EPCOT one because I'm running around the park with the kids....they do not want to sit in a lounge when they could be playing the Agent P games.

Yes, resale was the way to go for us. Excited for our first trip HOME!

 

[Sandisw]

Sorry, new member. I thought TOTWL was out....still won't go. I didn't even think about the EPCOT one because I'm running around the park with the kids....they do not want to sit in a lounge when they could be playing the Agent P games.

Yes, resale was the way to go for us. Excited for our first trip HOME!

Congrats! Yes, just wanted you to know that if you ever wanted to head up, you can! Enjoy that first trip!

 

[drusba]

Here is my question. Since they now have the multisite POS, and May have amended things, would new resale borrowers who buy now with restrictions be eligible to claim the violation because that language in the original documents is different?

Can they even amend resort POS documents?

What you identify is one of the probable "arguable positions that have some chance of succeeding" that DVC's lawyers likely identified in their opinion letter as to whether DVC could do what it did with Riviera, in that the post mid-January 2019 purchasers of the pre-Riviera resorts have actual notice of the restrictions in the POS documents issued at the time (both the site POS and multisite) for Riviera. However, that argument itself has problems for DVC. The pre-Riviera resorts all have their own site POSs and multisite POSs with exhibits having applicable DVC Resort Agreements.

The site POS's can be amended in certain respects but DVC cannot take away material rights of the members absent an actual vote of the members. Those prior site-POSs and multi-site POSs provide that all club members, which includes resale purchasers, shall have the same rights to use the DVC Reservation Component. The only purpose of the DVC Reservation Component is to make reservations at DVC resorts other than the one you own, and that includes DVC resorts that existed at the time those prior resorts were being sold and any new resorts added as a DVC Resort to the DVC Reservation Component. The prior multi-site POSs actually lack any express provisions allowing amendments but do have provisions allowing DVC to possibly take different directions on a number of issues, but none of those say DVC can eliminate the right of resale purchasers to use the DVC Reservation Component.

Another key document for the pre-Riviera resorts is the DVC Resort Agreement, an exhibit to the declarations in the site-POS which appoints BVTC as the party to administer the DVC Resort Component for all club members, which, again, by definition are both purchasers from DVC and resale purchasers. The pre-Riviera DVC Resort Agreements allow for all club members, again a term defined to include resale purchasers, to use the DVC Reservation Component to make reservations at DVC Resorts other than the one they own.Those agreements also expressly provide that BVTC can add new resorts to the DVC Reservation Compenent if, and only if, all the material terns of the new DVC Resort Agreement are the same as the prior DVC Resort Agreements.

In other words, under the pre-Riviera agreements, a resort like Riviera, prohibiting any DVC Members, such as resale purchasers, from using the DVC Reservation Component could not legally be added to the DVC Reservation Component that exists for the prior resorts. Despite that, DVC ignored those prior resort documents, created new ones for Riviera, including a DVC Resort Agreement with many material changes, including eliminating the clause that requires BVTC to allow new DVC Resorts to join the DVC Reservation Component only if their DVC Resort Agreements have the same materials as the older ones.

DVC can assert a post-January 2019 resale purchaser purchased with knowledge of the restrictions and thus cannot challenge them, an arguable position. The counter to that is that DVC and the rights of the resale purchaser of any resort that existed before Riviera are governed by the POSs and agreements that exist for those resorts, not the ones created for Riviera. In other words, it matters not that the resale purchaser had knowledge of the Riviera restrictions because he can still assert the prior documents control his rights relating to any DVC Resorts added to the DVC Reservation Component. DVC, of course, had the option to create Riviera as it has done. It just did not have the option of making it part of the existing DVC Resorts covered by the DVC Resort Component. The ultimate outcome of any suit is unclear but for a post-Jan 2019 resale purchaser, it is possible he could lose while winning. He could achieve an order that adding Riviera as a DVC resort was improper and thus it has to be removed from the system, in which case no DVC Members of the pre-Riviera resorts could use Riviera, and no Riviera owners could use the prior resorts, absent possibly DVC's dropping the resale restrictions so it can keep it as a DVC Resort, or just creating an exchange system similar to RCI.

 

[condorthb]

I saved over $10,000 buying resale. I'm totally cool with not being able to go to a lounge that is completely out of my way since I have no interest in staying at BLT. As for the other perks....they aren't that great, definitely not worth $10,000!

$9,750 here. I could give a rip about the Epcot lounge, Moonlight Magic, % discount, or ticket deals.

 

[skier_pete]

Disney has made this all confusing hasn't it? Because there are now I think at least 5 distinct types of member privledge levels.

1) All Privilege - Bought Direct or Bought resale before 2012
2) Can't use DVC points for concierge/DCL/ABD -bought resale 2012 to present
3) Two above plus Doesn't have member privileges - bought resale 2016 to present
4) Two and Three above plus Can't use their points at new resorts (or if at Riviera, anywhere but Riviera) - bought resale jan 2019.

This makes at least four types of members. I personally have a contract under #2, #3 and #4. Because of this, I "appear" to be a full member (blue card) but in fact I have never bought direct.

The long and the short of it is I think we should all consider ourselves members. Our membership privileges may be different, but in terms of the most basic of benefits - the ability to stay at DVC resorts on points - well we all have that, right?

 

[JETSDAD]

....the ability to stay at DVC resort(s) on points

Fixed that for you.

 

[aoconnor]

The official terminology DVC uses is:

"Member" - direct and pre- April 2016 resale buyers
"Purchaser" - post-April 2016 resale buyers

 

[JETSDAD]

The official terminology DVC uses is:

"Member" - direct and pre- April 2016 resale buyers
"Purchaser" - post-April 2016 resale buyers

That's not the official terminology. Official is that everyone is a member. All the POS's and DVC sites refer to everyone as members.

 

[aoconnor]

That's not the official terminology. Official is that everyone is a member. All the POS's and DVC sites refer to everyone as members.

That's what I was told by a CM but I suppose Purchaser is a subset of Member.

If you go to the DVC website then "My Profile", "Membership Information" it may be there. Mine says Purchaser (perhaps they all say that.. not sure as I don't have enough direct points to qualify as a full member).

 

[crvetter]

That's what I was told by a CM but I suppose Purchaser is a subset of Member. If you go to the DVC website then "My Profile", "Membership Information" it may be there. Mine says Purchaser (perhaps they all say that.. not sure as I don't have enough direct points to qualify as a full member).

I have two memberships one direct and one resale (post Jan 2019). Both specifically have a Members list. Under each name it lists Purchaser or Co-Purchaser. The only distinction on the website I see is a White Membership Card vs a Blue Membership Card. But everything refers to Members or Memberships.

The reason it says Purchaser is because Associate Members would be added here as well, which they are only entitled to the ability to make reservations and edit them. The Purchaser is more a flag to say they are on the deed and entitled to all the entitlements of the membership.

 

[JETSDAD]

That's what I was told by a CM but I suppose Purchaser is a subset of Member.

If you go to the DVC website then "My Profile", "Membership Information" it may be there. Mine says Purchaser (perhaps they all say that.. not sure as I don't have enough direct points to qualify as a full member).

Some CM's like to try to make that distinction but it is false. All owners are members.....some just don't have access to Membership Extras. From the fine print regarding membership extras: "....Members who have not purchased an ownership interest directly from Disney Vacation Development, Inc. will not have access to Membership Extras. "

From the Riviera POS:

Club Members who purchase an Ownership Interest at Riviera Resort from a third party other than directly from DVD or other seller approved by DVD, are not permitted to convert their Riviera Resort Home Resort Vacation Points related to that Ownership Interest to DVC Vacation Points for the purpose of reserving Vacation Homes at any other DVC Resort, including any future DVC Resorts, through the DVC Reservation Component. Purchasers should refer to the DVC Resort Agreement for details.

Just a couple examples.

 

[CarolynFH]

That's what I was told by a CM but I suppose Purchaser is a subset of Member.

If you go to the DVC website then "My Profile", "Membership Information" it may be there. Mine says Purchaser (perhaps they all say that.. not sure as I don't have enough direct points to qualify as a full member).

We bought direct at BWV in 1997, long before any of this started. On our deed, DH’s name is listed first and mine is second. On our DVC profile, he’s listed as Purchaser and I’m listed as Co-Purchaser. So that CM is incorrect.

 

[montrealdisneylovers]

Disney has made this all confusing hasn't it? Because there are now I think at least 5 distinct types of member privledge levels.

1) All Privilege - Bought Direct or Bought resale before 2012
2) Can't use DVC points for concierge/DCL/ABD -bought resale 2012 to present
3) Two above plus Doesn't have member privileges - bought resale 2016 to present
4) Two and Three above plus Can't use their points at new resorts (or if at Riviera, anywhere but Riviera) - bought resale jan 2019.

Regarding number 1, the date is technically March 21, 2011 which excludes most of 2011 resale purchasers. I know this because we squeezed in just before that date.